tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post8933031548749955453..comments2024-03-27T22:25:42.129-05:00Comments on Reading the Past: Redefining historical fiction, Amazon styleSarah Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-43158426641862769272009-04-11T10:46:00.000-05:002009-04-11T10:46:00.000-05:00Julianne, I admit I was curious to hear your thoug...Julianne, I admit I was curious to hear your thoughts on this, given your survey! "Period novel" isn't really a defined term, except in the ways we've talked about it here. When it's used to describe films (and Wikipedia confirms this, so it must mean something, right? :) it can refer to a piece set in any historical period, not just those with fictional characters. <BR/><BR/>That's funny! My verification word today is "creaker." Does that mean I'm getting old and crotchety?Sarah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-65458323766944780532009-04-10T23:13:00.000-05:002009-04-10T23:13:00.000-05:00Fascinating discussion, Sarah et al! I have not ye...Fascinating discussion, Sarah et al! I have not yet read Palace Circle, although I will now, precisely because it does NOT focus on the celebrity characters! I've never heard the term "period piece"--is that a "defined" genre, Sarah? I do agree with Christopher's definition of historical fiction--to me it is the attempt to recreate a past era and its ways of understanding the world that defines historical fiction. This can be achieved through various proportions of fictional vs. historical characters/events.<BR/><BR/>(I just have to add, my word verification is "ovivest"--I pictured a jacket made of colored eggs, quite appropriate for Easter!)Julianne Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10190332417986785920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-20049973295491333852009-04-08T18:42:00.000-05:002009-04-08T18:42:00.000-05:00Very interesting discussion. I haven't read the no...Very interesting discussion. I haven't read the novel in question but the topic did generate a series of questions for me. For example, when does a historical novel cease to be "historical"? Is it when fictional characters dominate the landscape, instead of historical personages? Or is it when the story ceases to be about historical events and/or these events are backdrops for a purely fictional storyline? Is a novel with a purely fictional story (no characters based on real-life people, no historical events mentioned or alluded to) that is set in, say, the 18th century historical because of its setting or does it require more to qualify? In other words, how much history vs fiction qualifies a book as historical fiction? The distinctions may seem minute, but as we have seen, some readers clearly have their own particular expectations.<BR/><BR/>I personally feel that if a novel illuminates our human condition in a way that also gives us a glimpse into the past, then it is historical.C.W. Gortnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11881402758065602605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-71162117514962125352009-04-07T20:37:00.000-05:002009-04-07T20:37:00.000-05:00I would have felt really discouraged if the author...I would have felt really discouraged if the author had included, say, a scene in which the king revealed his inner feelings about Mrs. Simpson to Delia (or the reader). It would have been unnatural.<BR/><BR/>Lynn, you may feel similarly about the characterization in this novel. The reader is an observer of the palace circle and its inhabitants, but from the outside, which for me highlighted how different their world was. I can see how others might find the characters shallow because of it, though I felt it was just a different approach. Her style reminded me of Charlotte Bingham (British saga writer) if anyone else has read her... also Penny Vincenzi.<BR/><BR/>The sequel to <I>Lanyon</I> did have regular people hobnobbing with royalty, which seemed somewhat of a stretch.Sarah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-32064294284466996902009-04-07T19:47:00.000-05:002009-04-07T19:47:00.000-05:00I have this book on my TBR pile, and I'm still loo...I have this book on my TBR pile, and I'm still looking forward to reading it. I think it's sad that people expect historical fiction to only encompass the famous people. I find different historical periods interesting, and there are some situations where forcing the famous people into a setting would feel terribly contrived. I just like getting to know the characters an author has created, and seeing how they live within their times.<BR/><BR/>I've actually read the Valerie Anand book you mention. It wasn't my favorite, but that was because I had trouble getting inside the heads of the main characters. This meant I often got a bit bored and frustrated while reading. However, given that the book concerned a merchant family, it would have been odd to see them hobnobbing with the famous aristocrats of their day.Lynn Spencerhttp://www.likesbooks.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-50567488142875297202009-04-07T16:23:00.000-05:002009-04-07T16:23:00.000-05:00I found this shocking. I read historical fiction t...I found this shocking. I read historical fiction to get the feel of a different era and culture. Famous name characters to me sometimes get in the way of that. But apparently I'm in the minority. I'll definitely keep this in mind when writing future books.Shauna Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03871768714926149114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-61131024391632852282009-04-06T16:44:00.000-05:002009-04-06T16:44:00.000-05:00Sara, I had tried to link to the Review on my blog...Sara, I had tried to link to the Review on my blog, but it's the same as you saw on Amazon, I am sure.<BR/>If the link doesn't work again, then on my blog under QuickFind Labels, 'palace circle' is there.<BR/>The link is http://burtonreview.blogspot.com/search/label/Palace%20Circle<BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy being famous for reviews :) LOL<BR/> insert big head here<BR/>and definitely love the debate of it all.<BR/>And I for one would not want to read a Phillipa Gregory Style book, perhaps that is another reason I didn't "love" this one? (The infidelity thing is too much for me as well, which jaded my view on another book I just read)<BR/><BR/>And I really do not have such a grip on my own USA WWII history where I could relate the characters they mentioned to any previous knowledge. So as far as the HF perspective, I never really thought about what it should and shouldn't be. I think perhaps in this book I had wanted to learn a bit more about the life & times during the War, but it is hard to judge that when it did seem to focus on parties a lot more. <BR/><BR/>So I just wanted to reiterate that my 3 star rating didn't get 5 stars because I disliked the style of the writing (separating the characters into sections, 5 sections is a bit much!)and I remembered about 2/3 through I simply was sick of it already, but I did manage to read it all.<BR/><BR/>As far as opinions go on HF, they are so far in difference, I had loved Kate Emerson's Pleasure Palace and gave it 5 stars and I have seen it where it was not as well received. <BR/> <BR/>I gave Palace Circle to my mom to see how she felt about it (I told her it was 'okay') but the silly goose just got Satellite TV and can't pick up a book these days.<BR/><BR/>I am going to be reading two more WWII books so we'll see how those wind up. And maybe I'll get some more knowledge in that area.BurtonReview https://www.blogger.com/profile/15113347274782450564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-32417507327777597642009-04-06T10:23:00.000-05:002009-04-06T10:23:00.000-05:00BTW, I agree with you on Delia's elder daughter - ...BTW, I agree with you on Delia's elder daughter - she was rather shallow (I thought her personality fit her lifestyle). Her section was the least compelling part of the book for me.Sarah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-475099509454735352009-04-06T10:19:00.000-05:002009-04-06T10:19:00.000-05:00Hi Marie, thanks for stopping by and clarifying yo...Hi Marie, thanks for stopping by and clarifying your opinion - I've seen other reviewers (on Amazon and elsewhere) say the same thing about the characterization and can understand where you all are coming from. I couldn't get the link at the end of your comment to work, though - was it to the full version of your review at Bookreporter? I'll see if I can find it.Sarah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-92110182098954254602009-04-06T09:41:00.000-05:002009-04-06T09:41:00.000-05:00I am the Marie that was quoted from the Amazon rev...I am the Marie that was quoted from the Amazon review.. Regardless of what I "expected" as Historical Fiction, which I didn't since I just received this from someone at Bookreporter, I agree with what 'Ms I' had said (dull and uninteresting). When you read my full review you'll understand the context of what I was getting at; it was specifically intended for my review to state that I did not believe the characters were well developed enough in order to relate to them. Which I didn't. I felt that Delia and her elder daughter were quite shallow. They were at war and I didn't feel the characters minded much. Perhaps I expected too much, the blurbs about famous people etc. Whenever there are infidelities in marriages I fail to bond with the characters as well. One of the reason for not bonding with the characters was due to it's being split up into 5 parts for each character; you start off with Delia and you pretty much leave her in the dust as you move on. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is posted <A> here </A>BurtonReview https://www.blogger.com/profile/15113347274782450564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-35817600600049408322009-04-03T00:04:00.000-05:002009-04-03T00:04:00.000-05:00Wonderful post Sarah. I think that there are all ...Wonderful post Sarah. I think that there are all kinds of different categories with-in the genre of historical fiction but they all share at least one thing. They are set in historical times.Teddy Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16145413222317511542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-77055167729123070102009-04-02T21:41:00.000-05:002009-04-02T21:41:00.000-05:00Tammy, did your copy of Palace Circle contain a pr...Tammy, did your copy of <I>Palace Circle</I> contain a preview of the next book at the end? (Mine wasn't an ARC.) Because judging from what I read, I suspect it will fit the bill for readers who prefer to focus on historical characters. It doesn't appear to be a sequel.Sarah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-72829388172111075612009-04-02T20:43:00.000-05:002009-04-02T20:43:00.000-05:00Great post, Sarah. I know you know what I thought...Great post, Sarah. I know you know what I thought of Palace Circle, and I have to say we're on the same page. I don't think characters have to be shown having actual conversations with historical figures to make them (the historical figures) come to life. I liked how Dean structured this novel--it wasn't all about the famous.Taminatorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12375642888613084170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-17391505862269107012009-04-02T14:30:00.000-05:002009-04-02T14:30:00.000-05:00I think the definitions of books (historical ficti...I think the definitions of books (historical fiction vs period piece) may be becoming crossed or blurred. If famous people of the time are supposed to have a prominent role in the book, then wouldn't the story be about them, and not the family that knows them and just had lunch together?<BR/><BR/>I would say that most people probably saw Gregory's name on the cover and formed an instant opinion. Happy to read you liked the book. It's on my TBR.Jenny Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04077659644092707107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-10331227762703887332009-04-02T14:29:00.000-05:002009-04-02T14:29:00.000-05:00I think this is a very interesting question, as it...I think this is a very interesting question, as it mirrors some of the debate around the study and teaching of history itself. Traditionally, history was felt to consist only of the actions of major players on the world stage. In the 20th century, when historians started studying the history of common people, popular culture, and formerly marginalized groups such as women and racial minorities, it created a huge stir. There are still lots of people who feel that this sort of history shouldn't be taught in schools, and the curriculum should still be devoted to "dead white men." <BR/><BR/>I think it's fair to say that this is a period novel, but also that period novels constitute a form of historical fiction. Would these people criticize Charles Dickens for not having Marie Antoinette star in A Tale of Two Cities?dewey_decimalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-86584669906972822742009-04-02T13:46:00.000-05:002009-04-02T13:46:00.000-05:00Yeah, it really is not anywhere close to historica...Yeah, it really is not anywhere close to historical romance. I don't often see novels of this type from American publishers nowadays (the author has written a previous novel that can be found on Amazon UK) so I would think the marketing would be tough to get right.Sarah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-9214131552756732422009-04-02T13:23:00.000-05:002009-04-02T13:23:00.000-05:00Interesting topic. Perhaps its the marketing of th...Interesting topic. Perhaps its the marketing of the book that lead buyers to expect historical fiction and involved more of the "real" people of the day - although I get the impression from the Amazon page that its a historical romance. There are a lot of reviews from Vine members and sometimes you don't get a lot of info on the book when you choose it through Vine, so perhaps they expected historical fiction revolving around read characters. Who knows?<BR/><BR/>I enjoy a good solid historical romance, whether with "real" people in the forefront or not, but it still has to be well written and with good characterization and period details<BR/><BR/>I do see several reviews on Amazon for this book from reviewers that I've followed over the years (including Ms. I) and most of the time I have similar opinions as they do, although occasionally we go sideways on the same book - that's life - we're not all going to like the same book every time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-37417674489734013372009-04-02T12:55:00.000-05:002009-04-02T12:55:00.000-05:00Julie, I agree with what you said - that focusing ...Julie, I agree with what you said - that focusing on historical characters can create an easy entree into history. In some cases (let me take this a little further) it may be seen as a cheap way of doing so - add real people to the storyline, have them interact with the fictional ones, and voila, instant HF. I think that's what some of the commenters were trying to get at. I'd counter this by saying that since the main character is an aristocrat/socialite, having her encounter the famous people only at parties and lunches is realistic.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying all these things primarily to defend the book (though I did enjoy it) but to understand more about why the reaction was as it was.Sarah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-65351824800719553572009-04-02T12:42:00.000-05:002009-04-02T12:42:00.000-05:00DeAnna, I didn't take your comments that way at al...DeAnna, I didn't take your comments that way at all, so no problem! <BR/><BR/>I actually like the definition of HF to be broad, and to encompass sagas like <I>Palace Circle</I> provided they reflect the historical period accurately. The interesting thing is that Follett's <I>Pillars of the Earth</I> is another multigenerational tale with all fictional characters (and based around social and cultural rather than political history) yet you don't hear anyone saying that it's not "real" HF. Even though its characters don't behave like medieval people. There's a difference in reaction here, and I've been trying to get at why that is. Because of the Gregory comparison? Because the author teases by introducing some real people but having them stay in the background?<BR/><BR/>The expectation held by those Amazon reviewers, that HF must contain celebrity appearances and/or focus on major events, bothers me. I've heard "period novel" used to describe novels with fictional characters, such as sagas, so it would fit here. I've also heard it used to describe "lite" HF, those with wallpaper backgrounds. This is just my view, but I'd include novels in the first category under the overall HF umbrella, along with works like Poldark, The Thorn Birds, John Jakes's sagas, etc.Sarah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-60065092034117330752009-04-02T12:12:00.000-05:002009-04-02T12:12:00.000-05:00Hi, Sarah --I didn't mean to imply that you were t...Hi, Sarah --<BR/>I didn't mean to imply that you were treating the author unfairly. Not at all. What I meant was the Amazon reviewers who are ranking the author poorly are being unfair. From what I've seen, the term "historical fiction" is applied to any novel set in the past that isn't primarily a romance (then it would be called "historical romance"). That covers *a lot* of territory, and maybe too much if it's setting up expectations for readers that the novel and author never intended. I think it's a great solution to add "period novel" to the book genre lexicon as a way to distinguish from "historical fiction" in the strict sense and "historical romance."DeAnna Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06707301836253449127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-44739985157333360882009-04-02T07:32:00.000-05:002009-04-02T07:32:00.000-05:00Heather pretty much sums it up for me, too. What ...Heather pretty much sums it up for me, too. What got me interested in history, and what got me really hooked, was learning about the daily life of regular people. The throughline of human relationships, human nature, from "then" to now is fascinating. Famous folk have their place of course, but they're the .5% of the population and not representative. I think the obsession with celebrity in our culture does have something to do with it; I also think the focus on famous historical figures is a kind of shorthand or easy entree into history.Julie K. Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16482808163340645506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-73844000521173774362009-04-02T07:03:00.000-05:002009-04-02T07:03:00.000-05:00I don't think you're wrong at all, Sarah. I'm kind...I don't think you're wrong at all, Sarah. I'm kind of boggled by these complaints. Historical fiction = fiction set in history, right? A good historical novel contains history: social history, cultural history, medical history, etc, all those little details that make the world come alive. I had no idea some people didn't consider it historical if it didn't contain celebrities as main characters. It's kind of disturbing, actually -- only famous people are part of history? That's news to me.Heatherhttp://teacake421.livejournal.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-6847478514340599532009-04-02T06:19:00.000-05:002009-04-02T06:19:00.000-05:00I just finished my copy yesterday and found it ver...I just finished my copy yesterday and found it very dull and uninteresting. The characters didn't have much life to them and frankly the plot was very very predictable. Those were my main concerns.YA Librarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04147401205365756126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-8308552280338409492009-04-02T05:02:00.000-05:002009-04-02T05:02:00.000-05:00Fascinating post Sarah. I do find the comparisons ...Fascinating post Sarah. I do find the comparisons to Philippa Gregory quite interesting given that her last book was really not that well received even by her fans.Marghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13508430635744720721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19307003.post-39114986535345324372009-04-01T23:21:00.000-05:002009-04-01T23:21:00.000-05:00DeAnna, thanks for your comments! I agree "period ...DeAnna, thanks for your comments! I agree "period novel" is an apt description. Unlike the reviewers, though, I don't think "historical novel" is any less apt. One thing I may not have gotten across very well in my post (maybe because I was trying to avoid precipitating my review!) was that there's a ton of historical detail in it that ties it to its place and time. For example, coming out as a debutante in 1930s London is something described very vividly, as is life in the British community in Cairo pre-WWII (and Britain's influence on the native monarchy), class differences, race relations, etc. All of these things the reader sees firsthand. But it's true, you don't glimpse Wallis Simpson for more than a couple pages at a time, and other times she comes up in conversations rather than in person. Some of the issue here could be a marketing thing, but there are also some reader expectations about historical novels that make themselves pretty clear in the reviews!Sarah Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13340312953393474963noreply@blogger.com